One of the chief affections we as humans should pursue along with truth and virtue is the appreciation for beauty. As lawyers, we are uniquely predisposed to ignoring this element of human life for want of loveliness in our work and in the people we come across.
My discussion today is an attempt to rethink the Christian attorney's relationship with beauty. My guest has written a seminal work (here) on the importance of beauty in the law, providing an essential primer for inquiring minds committed to the common good.
Mark Fowler is a practicing lawyer whose specialist areas of advice include the law applying to not-for-profit organisations, income tax exempt institutions, charities and deductible gift recipients. He has advised a wide range of schools and other educational institutions, international aid organizations, charitable housing associations, benevolent institutions, disability service providers, peak bodies, arts and cultural organizations and religious organizations. For more.
Happy New Years!
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
The question of natural law continues to come up in the context of Christian jurisprudence, and for good reason. It is a topic both fascinating and formative, touching on topics as vast as the origins of the American constitutional experiment, human vulnerability, and modern society. And so with the new book from Alex Deagon (here) on the interaction of Christian natural law and religious freedom, I get an opportunity to learn something new on this mysterious topic.
Alex and I talk about his intellectual journey, the shaping of his thesis, the meaning and application of natural law, the importance of religious freedom, and more.
Alex is an Associate Professor in the School of Law, Queensland University of Technology. He is an international expert in religious freedom and the author of From Violence to Peace (2017) and Reconciling Freedom and Discrimination (2023). Full bio.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
All year, we’ve witnessed in America a law enforcement presence dedicated to a single mission: mass deportation. While initially this mission was centered on the eradication of dangerous criminals, those now detained with no criminal history has outpaced those with convictions or pending criminal charges. The stories have been saddening and legally complex, leaving Christians with a tension between the mandates of "loving the foreigner in our midst" and the respect we owe to the ruling authorities appointed by God. A tension that cannot be broken by partisanship or by reducing this multifaceted issue to a binary designation of legal vs. illegal.
In today’s episode, I talk to two World Relief staff members working in this area about the state of things in our country in an effort to continue my own education and to show just how complicated this all is. Ted Oswald and Anna Colby are both attorneys with World Relief’s Immigration Legal Services helping immigrants and refugees in the Sacramento area. (You can find some of Anna’s writing here.)
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
In 2010, the Supreme Court issued a consequential opinion that stifled the freedom of association across countless campuses when it came to religious groups. In CLS v. Martinez, in a divided 5-4 opinion, the Court opened the way for universities to limit group association by refusing to grant them power to elect those leaders best suited to carry on that group’s mission and purpose.
In a forthcoming article (here) in the Texas Review of Law and Politics, my guest today, Benjamin Fleshman, covers the infamous Martinez decision and the problem it created for student organizations across the country. Given the closeness of this topic to my own work, we discuss in some detail the infamous “all comers” policy (see this and this) still upheld in some law schools, e.g., UC-Berkeley (see this), nature of student organizations, the importance of recent Supreme Court decisions (see recent FCA en banc decision in the Ninth Circuit and then the other mentioned FCA case in Washington, D.C.), the recent attempts to strengthen group access (see this), and more.
Benjamin joined The Becket Fund for Religious Liberty as Counsel in 2023. His work there focuses on appellate litigation in both state and federal courts. Prior to joining Becket, Ben worked as an associate at Shearman & Sterling in Washington, D.C., where he practiced antitrust law and complex commercial litigation. Before entering private practice, he served as a law clerk to Judge Jennifer Walker Elrod of the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. Full bio.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
One of the cliches of culture is that we are polarized. Perhaps because it has become so commonplace to speak of our divisions, our divisions have become normalized. In my conversation today, I speak with someone who is very much at the heart of the American political order and has a unique vantage point for elucidating the cosmic significance of our clashes.
Jim DeMint is an American businessman, author, and retired politician who served as a United States Senator from South Carolina and as president of The Heritage Foundation. A leading figure in the Tea Party movement, Jim is a member of the Republican Party and is the founder of the Senate Conservatives Fund. His most recent accomplishment was serving as the founding chairman of the Conservative Partnership Institute.
Jim and I talk about his new book entitled What the Bible Really Says About Creation, End Times, Politics, and You. I ask him about his faith inside the many offices he held, the church and whether he trusts the pastors to deliver the “right” message, his reading of Ephesians 6 and the cosmic war at play, and much more.
Today marks the 200th episode of the Cross & Gavel. As part of that celebration, I have brought back the original host to have an unscripted and (mostly) unedited conversation about all things ministry, movies, books, and more.
Mike Schutt is now the Executive Director of Worldview Academy, the director of the CLS Law School Fellows Program, and the author of the seminal work for Christian law students, Redeeming Law: Christian Calling and the Legal Profession. Mike is also an affiliate professor at Trinity Law School and a decent human being (I don’t care what Myron says).
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
My guest today comes from outside the United States and has been studying the religious freedom landscape in Australia for quite some time. In his new book—Unshaken Allegiance: Living Wisely as Christians with Diminishing Religious Freedoms—he chronicles many of these challenges, offering a constructively approach to matters of difference and the various ways to express our Christian identity in the heat of public contest.
Patrick Parkinson (AM, MA, LLM, LLD) is an Emeritus Professor of Law and former Dean of Law at the University of Queensland. He has been involved in advocacy for religious freedom in Australia for many years, in particular as board member and sometime Chair of Freedom for Faith. He is an expert on family law and child protection and has held various positions chairing governmental advisory bodies in Australia in these areas, leading to significant law reform.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
My guest this week is Whittney Barth, an associate teaching professor at Emory Law School and the Executive Director and Charlotte McDaniel Scholar at the Center for the Study of Law and Religion. Our conversation centers around her new piece arguing that religious actors act as friction creators in the discussion and development of AI tools, ethics, and regulation.
Full paper: https://www.mdpi.com/2075-471X/14/5/67
Full bio: https://cslr.law.emory.edu/people/cslr-leadership/barth-whittney.html
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
In this special film festival edition, I talk with Crystal L. Downing about the medium of film and how to approach the viewing experience. At the heart of our discussion is her new book,
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
One of the major challenges in religious freedom law is figuring out to what extent a claim of accommodation is justified given the low barrier of entry for claims of sincerity. While American law tries to prevent a man from becoming what Justice Scalia in Smith called “a law unto himself,” something of the sort is happening when a person claims that his faith prevents him from following the normal course of obedience. My conversation today helps illuminate some of this in a profound way, specifically looking at Soren Kierkegaard’s ethical system and considering its corollary in the rule of law.
My guest is Joshua Neoh, a senior lecturer in law at the Australian National University (ANU), Australia. He has an LLB, LLM and PhD from the ANU, Yale and Cambridge, respectively. Full bio.
His paper at the heart of this conversation is called Kierkegaardian Ethics and the Rule of Law, available here.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
In Part I, Ross Halperin and I laid a foundation for the work of ASJ in Honduras under the leadership of Kurt Ver Beek and others. In this episode, I am joined by Kurt himself to discuss his exchange of letters between Nicholas Wolterstorff in a wonderful book, Call for Justice: From Practice to Theory and Back, which looks at the meaning of justice and the work ASJ.
Kurt is joined by Emily Cole, who has focused on Latin America most of her career and remains a passionate advocate for the well-being and development of that region. I speak to them about a number of things, focusing on the structural details of working in the area, including the difference between social justice and community development, the importance of long-term missionary work, the significance of elections, working with the government, and more.
Kurt and his wife, Jo Ann Van Engen, are currently the directors of Calvin University’s Justice Studies Semester, which studies the concept of justice in relation to history, economics, politics, sociology, and development in Honduras. Both are founding members of the Association for a More Just Society (ASJ) in Honduras. ASJ seeks to do justice in Honduras and inspire others around the world to seek justice in their own contexts. For more.
Emily Cole is a lawyer and an advocate, writing about poetry, human rights, and community development, with a focus on Latin America. For more on her work on covenantal pluralism, go here. She also recently wrote for the Journal of Christian Legal Thought considering the role of the poetic imagination in Latin America. Read it here.
Both are Fulbright recipients, with a focus on work in Honduras and Ecuador, respectively.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
Today, we start a two-part journey into the heart of Honduran society. Our focus will be on one man, Kurt Ver Beek, and the organization he co-founded, Association for a More Just Society (ASJ). Kurt is a professor of Sociology (Emeritus) at Calvin University and lead investigator for an agreement between Transparency International, the Honduran Government, and ASJ. For this first episode, we are joined by the reporter Ross Halperin, whose recent biography (here) of Kurt’s ministry (New York Times profile here) paints a fascinating picture of a man dedicated to the cause of justice.
While Ross and I do not discuss the entire scope of the book, we do focus on the criminal justice system and the many barriers erected for victims seeking relief. Ross and I talk about how he came to write the book, the work of ASJ in helping reduce the violence in Honduras, some of the main characters in the story, and much more.
Ross attended Harvard University and worked under Mark A. R. Kleiman, one of the world’s leading criminal-justice scholars. He started reporting this story in 2018 and has since spent much of his time in Honduras.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
My conversation today is on the necessity of adaptive leadership in the coming wave that is artificial intelligence. My guest is Kevin Frazier, the newly minted AI Innovation and Law Fellow at The University of Texas School of Law. His article (here) in Law & Liberty is called Building an AI-Savvy Workforce. His new podcast, Scaling Law (here), is excellent. Find his other work at Lawfare (here).
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
On June 20, 2025, the Fifth Circuit returned its decision in the Louisiana Ten Commandments case (here), upholding the District Courts order blocking the law from going into effect. This was followed by a petition on June 26 for a rehearing en banc by the State (here). At the same time, Texas passed its on bill (here) requiring displays of the Ten Commandments in classrooms. On June 24, that law was challenged in the Northern District of Texas (here) by a group of parents seeking to stop the bill from going into effect. Needless to say, our topic today is very timely, discussing the history of public displays of the Ten Commandments in public schools.
My guests are Mark David Hall and Andrea Picciotti-Bayer, who wrote an article on the topic pending publication in the William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal entitled Ten Commandments in the Public Square and Public Schools (draft here).
Mark David Hall (bio) joined the faculty of the Robertson School of Government at Regent University in 2023. He is one of the most outstanding scholars of early America, whose many distinguished publications have argued persuasively for the crucial importance of Christianity in the flourishing of America’s experiment in ordered liberty.
Andrea Picciotti-Bayer (bio) is Director of the Conscience Project. A Stanford-educated lawyer, she has dedicated her legal career to civil rights and appellate advocacy. She got her start as a trial and appellate attorney in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. Prior to leading the Conscience Project, she served as the legal advisor for the Catholic Association, filing amicus briefs with federal courts of appeal and the U.S. Supreme Court in key religious freedom and free speech cases.
Resources noted by the guests: RFI, John Witte's book, and The Sacred Rights of Conscience (Liberty Fund) book.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
This week, we have a special episode. One near and dear to my heart and my own intellectual history. It is a conversation with professor Marc O. DeGirolami on his piece published in the Oxford Journal of Law & Religion covering the life and death of law and religion. Read it here.
In it, he takes us into the first wave of this movement and its advent forces with those like Harold Berman and John Witte, Jr., who took on the critical mantle of reacting to “the deconstruction of the American Christian legal heritage proceeding apace in the courts and the academy.” DeGirolami discusses the priorities that animated the early scholars of this movement and its eventual decline due not only to various forms of categorical capitulations and concept desuetude, but also the ravages of retirements and the changing landscape of legal discourse. We talk about all this and more!
Marc is the inaugural St. John Henry Newman Professor of Law and Co-Director of the Center for Law and the Human Person. Full bio.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
The Foundations Series is a new web content venture from CLS aimed at helping Christian law students transition from 3Ls to first-year associates. It features Christian practitioners skilled in the integration of faith and practice, offering guidance in conversation with students at the early stages of their legal development.
My guests today are James A. Boatman & Stephen Schahrer, collectively from the Florida law firm Boatman Ricci. James is a commercial litigator with extensive experience in both federal and state courts. He has handled a broad spectrum of matters including: contract enforcement; foreclosure prosecution/defense; internet wire fraud prosecution; special asset recovery; construction defect litigation; common law tort cases (fraud, defamation, etc.) and many others. Stephen handles legal matters for clients from “all walks of life” in the area of business and commercial litigation including business litigation, construction defect and lien litigation, real estate litigation, general contract litigation, and trust and estate litigation. Stephen also serves as outside General Counsel to several local businesses and nonprofits. For more.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Chris Zabriskie.
With the release of U.S. News Rankings last month, renewed interest has surfaced regarding the parameters and impact of placement. Where law schools fall speaks to not only the quality of their percieved education, but also success regarding student employment and faculty publication. On this episode, I speak with Michael Conklin, a scholar who’s been measuring bias within the Rankings system, this time focusing his attention on religious law schools. His paper, soon to be published in the Florida Journal of Law & Public Policy, is entitled Religious Law Schools, Rankings, and Bias: Measuring the Rankings Penalty at Religious Law Schools.
Dr. Michael Conklin is the Visiting Assistant Professor of Business Law at Texas A&M University Central Texas and a lecturer at Texas A&M University School of Law. Full bio and SSRN papers.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently wrote, "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together.
In this special episode, Michelle Williams talks to Ken Sande about relational wisdom, emotional intelligence, and developing healthy habits in navigating the challenges of legal pratice.
Helpful resources for continuing education:
For more with Ken Sande, listen to our other conversatioin here.
Link to SUBSTACK here.
Music Credit: Tokyo Music Walker
For most of the second half of 20th century, the Supreme Court has wrestled with finding a balance between the Free Exercise of religion and the Establishment Clause, offering several tests to test the limits of permissible accommodation without the undue appearance of government endorsement. Among those tests has been a little-thing called the “play in the joints,” famously introduced in Walz v. Tax Commissioner of New York (1970). In this episode, I explore this concept with Falco Anthony Muscante II, whose paper in the Ave Marie Law Review is called “Play in the Joints” Among the Religion Clauses: Rebuilding the Strong Joints the Framers Formed.
In our conversation, we discuss the history of the religious clause and what the framers intended, how the concept emerged and became weaponized in Locke v. Davey (2003), why the Court has latched on to the idea of state neutrality and how that impacts religion, and more.
Falco Anthony Muscante II earned his J.D. in 2023 from the Duquesne University School of Law, where he served on the executive boards for the Law Review and Appellate Moot Court Board. He is an alumnus of Grove City College, where he graduated summa cum laude with a B.S. Management, minor in Pre-Law, and concentration in Human Resources. Falco is a litigation associate at a big law firm in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, soon headed to clerk for the Third Circuit.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento
The Foundations Series is a new web content venture from CLS aimed at helping Christian law students transition from 3Ls to first-year associates. It features Christian practitioners skilled in the integration of faith and practice, offering guidance in conversation with students at the early stages of their legal development.
My guests today are Joe Ruta and Stephen Lyon. Joe is a Partner of Ruta, Soulios, & Stratis LLP. He is outside general counsel to over 30 corporations ranging from startups to public companies as well as not-for-profits. For more.
Stephen is a deputy assistant public defender working in Connecticut. For more.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Chris Zabriskie.
The recent publication of Melissa Moschella’s Ethics, Politics, and Natural Law has renewed interest in the application of natural law to human flourishing. A topic that has undergone a resurgence among not only Catholics, but also Protestants with seminal publications from those like David VanDrunen, Micah Watson, and Andrew T. Walker. Seeing students engaging in this tradition has been rewarding and today I speak to one of those students, Josiah Wolfe, and his article in the Campbell Law Observer entitled, Natural Law and Its Discontents.
We talk about the early stages of his interest in the topic, whether he’s seeing the natural law in his assignment, how he approaches Aquinas and law, the relationship between legislation and divine ordinance, and much more.
Josiah is a second-year law student at Campbell University School of Law and is a Staff Writer for the Campbell Law Observer. He grew up in North Carolina and graduated summa cum laude from Charter Oak College with a B.S. in Business Administration. He was also a CLS Fellow in 2024.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
A popular refrain from both the left and the right in American society is one concerning the importance of liberty for the flourishment of their respective communities. But what does true freedom look like and, perhaps more importantly, how does one come to attain it and then keep it in a world like our own. This week, I am joined by Brad Littlejohn to talk about his new book, Called to Freedom: Retrieving Christian Liberty in an Age of License.
In our conversation, we discuss the journey of writing this book, the nature and meaning of liberty in all of its areas, role of obligation and virtue, the influence of modern technology on freedom, and more.
Brad is the Director of Programs and Education at American Compass and president emeritus at Davenant Institute.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
The John Witte, Jr. Lecture Series on Christianity & Law is back! A new venture from Christian Legal Society aimed at advancing the conversation surrounding the integration of Christianity & law.
In our second lecture inspired by the American 19th century painters, we go international and ask what contributions Christianity made to advancing human rights. Our keynote is Kristina Arriaga, who digs deep into her Cuban heritage to bring us a fascinating lecture on the Christian jurists who paved the way for our modern rights framework. She was joined by Justice Jamie R. Grosshans (Florida Supreme Court) for a period of Q&A after the lecture.
For more on Kristina's work, see here. If you would like to hear the introductions by Anton Sorkin and John Witte, Jr., and the Q&A with Justice Jamies R. Grosshans, check out the full version here.
SPONSOR: The Witte Lectures are sponsored by TRINITY LAW SCHOOL.
SOUND: Special thanks to Josh Deng for his technical support in getting this audio ready.
MUSIC: Prelude No. 2 by Chris Zabriskie.
SPECIAL THANKS to Stephanie Barclay for writing a wonderful biogrpahy for Kristina in the Program.
Today, a sharply divided Supreme Court reinstated a lower-court order for the Trump administration to release frozen foreign aid. In this episode, I talk with Matthew Soerens of World Relief about some of the recent executive orders and how marginalized voices can help restore the American church in its places of prominence.
Matt began his World Relief journey in 2005 as an intern in Nicaragua. Since then he served as a Department of Justice-accredited legal counselor in Chicagoland before assuming the role of U.S. Director of Church Mobilization and Advocacy. He is the co-author of three books including Welcoming the Stranger (InterVarsity Press, 2018) and Inalienable (InterVarsity Press, 2022). He is a graduate of Wheaton College, where he has also served as a guest faculty member in the Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership program, and earned a master’s degree from DePaul University’s School of Public Service.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.
Today we delve into the world of Title VII by looking at the pending case in Carter v. Transp. Workers Union of Am. Local 556. The focus of our discussion will be on the paper from Blaine Hutchison in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, entitled Title VII’s Religious Liberty Rules in Carter (here). Blaine is joined by one of the premier experts in the field of employment law and also my old professor, Bruce Cameron.
As part of this conversation, we lay out some history for Religious Accommodation claims, the importance of protecting the conscience, the freewheelin’ accommodation claim (for more, see this), the background in Carter, and more.
Professor Bruce Cameron (profile) teaches employment discrimination law at Regent University School of Law and has been litigating religious accommodation cases for the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation for four decades. Blaine Hutchinson (profile) is a staff attorney with the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation.
Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.