Many who discuss political theology run to the likes of Augustine or Aquinas to explain the ways their minds express the world and treat its people. And while those thinkers are profound and helpful, the idea of political theology carries a lifeblood that invites Christians to think creatively about its seams and the ways it informs and binds our common connections.

That is why I’m excited to produce this conversation with Vincent Lloyd, who co-authored a recent book entitled What Is Political Theology (Columbia University Press 2026) that touches on the multifaceted concepts of political theology and what it means today. Vincent and I discuss the meaning of the term and its scandals, the idea of domination that undergirds his writing, the way academics and activists work together on advancing a political theology from below, and so much more.

This is a dense episode: for those who listen 1.2x speed, you’ve been warned!

Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

One of the most difficult issues to solve is the careful balance of criminal reform with the punitive aims of state power. While most of us don’t want to needless lock up our neighbors, we are also in favor of the systematic creation of spaces of safety for our families and friends. But with underlying aims of justice comes the sins of man’s overreach in search of solutions. Alas, enters mass incarceration.

I talk today about this pervasive problem through the lenses of Christian Realism. My guest once again is Jeff Baker, the first Associate Dean of Experiential Learning and Clinical Professor of Law at the University of Alabama School of Law. His scholarship focuses on issues of human rights and dignity, social justice, legal education, and ethics, at the intersections of law, theology, jurisprudence, and public policy. Full bio.

His paper, Christian Realism and The Sins of Mass Incarceration, is a clarion call for applying ethical lawyering to issues of present concern. We discuss what is mass incarceration, how it’s connected to financial incentives, ways we come to appreciate the prisoner as an image bearer, and so much more.

[NOTE: A few other conversations I’ve had along this topic includes the history of law and order, reforming criminal justice, prison abolition, second chances, and prison ministry.]

Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento