Cross & Gavel Audio

Explore a variety of conversations at the intersection of Faith and Law, with host Mike Schutt, director of the Christian Legal Society's Institute for Christian Legal Studies and Attorney Ministries.
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Dec 16, 2015

Ken Liu is Director of Christian Legal Aid Ministries for the Christian Legal Society. He says that his call into this ministry began when he, as a teenager, began to be serious about his Christian walk and to understand God's compassion for the poor. Listen as he discusses his road to using his legal skills to serve the poor, first as a reluctant lawyer, then an enthusiastic volunteer, and now as Director of a national legal aid ministry.

Listeners will be inspired and challenged as they listen to Ken's heart for those in need. If God calls us to seek justice for the poor, and lawyers have a monopoly on providing legal care, then lawyers must have a special responsibility before God to serve those in need with the legal gifts God has given them.

Listen in as Ken and Mike Schutt discuss Ken's personal journey, his current work in supporting legal aid work, CLS resources available to attorneys, and suggestions for developing a heart of compassion. Whether you are simply interested in learning more about Christian Legal Aid, or you're praying about starting a clinic in your community, this podcast is for you.

For more information, contact Ken at or visit the Legal Aid Section of the Christian Legal Society website

Ken Liu is the Director of CLS Legal Aid Ministries and an attorney at Gammon & Grange in Tysons, VA. When he is not training legal aid lawyers or traveling the country in support of legal aid clinics, he practices intellectual property law and serves non-profit organizations in his law practice. He is a 1997 graduate of Cornell Law School.

Mike Schutt is host of Cross & Gavel Audio podcasts and serves as director of both Law Student Ministries and Attorney Ministries for the Christian Legal Society. Contact him at

Dec 1, 2015

Charlie Clauss says that it's okay to cry out against our current secularized, commercial, extended version of Christmas. He says that people are hungry for something more substantial than the "war" over Christmas or the 60-day shopping spree, hungry for something that will feed our souls as we mark time in the world.

And that's where the season of Advent can help. 

In this episode, Charlie and Mike discuss why Advent is the perfect antidote to the commercialization and secularization of Christmas, and why it is also much much more than that. Advent is not an extended Christmas, or "Christmas Lite." It's a season that reminds Christ followers to reflect on their lives in light of the coming of Christ-- His coming in glory to set all things right. Jesus is coming, and He's coming whether we're ready or not-- and that is reason for hope as well as for self-examination.

The discussion ranges from the history of the season, to ideas on how to observe it well, to thoughts on how to not to be an Advent snob, and to some themes and passages that we can turn to at this time of year. 

Listen in on the discussion and find out why observing Advent is like finding a cave in a storm, why you might find chocolate in your shoes on December 6, and whether Charlie will be sending Mike ten Lords a-leaping or seven swans a-swimming during the twelve-day feast of Christmas.  

Mike Schutt directs Law Student Ministries & Attorney Ministries for the Christian Legal Society and is the founder and host of the Cross & Gavel Audio podcast.

Charlie Clauss is the founder of the Keeping Advent Facebook Page, a math teacher, a Minnesota resident, a gentleman, and a scholar, among many other things. Join the discussion at "Keeping Advent" on Facebook here.

Nov 19, 2015

In the First Ever First Annual Cross & Gavel Thanksgiving podcast, host Mike Schutt and Christian Legal Society Executive Director David Nammo list many of the things in their lives and work for which they are thankful. Along the way, they talk about their families, youth ministry, Vanderbilt Law School, candy corn, Narnia, the books that have shaped them, youth ministry, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, courage, religious liberty, taste buds, George Washington's Thanksgiving Day Proclamation, and the CLS Board of Directors, among many many other things. 

It's a fun conversation (for them, anyway), and they wonder if they will survive to record the First Annual Christmas podcast. Listen in and let us know!

It is our hope that this light-hearted exercise in spontaneous, detailed conversation naming our blessings will inspire you to do the same this Thanksgiving. Enjoy.

Mike Schutt is host of the Cross & Gavel Audio Podcast, and David Nammo is the CEO of the Christian Legal Society in Springfield, VA. For more information about CLS, go to (That is also the place to find C&G podcast episodes ##1-32)


Nov 9, 2015

As the Executive Director of the Christian Legal Society, David Nammo spends time with hundreds of lawyers and future lawyers every year. Mike Schutt begins this episode by asking him, "What are lawyers and students thinking-- what are they worried about these days?" 

The ensuing conversation touches on matters of ethics, habits, cultural pressures, temptation, the role of professional communities, the local congregation, and much more. Dave believes one of the central tasks of life in the law is to seek God. As we seek Him, we better understand our unique calling in the profession. 

Listen in and be encouraged 

David Nammo is the Executive Director and CEO of the Christian Legal Society. Mike Schutt is host of Cross & Gavel Audio and Director of Law Student Ministries and Attorney Ministries for CLS. 

For more information on CLS, visit

Episodes of C&G Audio previous to #35 are available at the CLS Website. 

Oct 29, 2015

Trinity Law School Dean Myron Steeves has a vision for lawyers in ministry across the country. He says we ought to be looking for attorneys in the mold of the great reformer John Knox, who famously said, "Give me Scotland or I die," to gather and encourage lawyers in their mission in every city and every county. In this episode, Dean Steeves articulates this broad mission: addressing injustice, pursuing law reform, engaging in prayer ministry at the courthouse, encouraging church-centered mediation, and heeding the vocational call to minister to the client as a "whole person," among other things.

The conversation begins with host Mike Schutt asking how Christian attorneys might encourage their pastors, who have some anxiety in the wake of the Obergefell decision. Dean Steeves, who also advises non-profits, has some wisdom on the question of what Obergefell does and does not do, and why he is optimistic, at least in the very long term. 

As the discussion moves to discuss the calling of Christian lawyers, generally, the topics range from the beauty of contract law ("it goes directly to the heart of what it means to be human") to the limits of litigation ("litigation is good for only one thing") and beyond. Schutt and Steeves touch on how groups of lawyers meeting in various places might better encourage one another to be "ministers to the whole person" and why "talking amongst ourselves" as attorneys is a pretty good idea. 

You can find out more about Trinity Law School here and the Dean here. If you are interested in downloading early episodes (i.e., before iTunes) of Cross & Gavel Audio, they are available at the Christian Legal Society website, here.

Oct 19, 2015

Mike Peffer serves the Pacific Justice Institute as the Director of its Santa Ana office, and he sits down with C & G host Mike Schutt to talk about the work of PJI. Their conversation touches on trends in religious liberty cases, including zoning disputes, the need for ordinary attorneys to volunteer their time, and Christian Legal Aid. 

Along the way, Peffer discusses his path to public interest law and recalls his rewarding work in Christian Legal Aid. 

For more information about the Pacific Justice Institute, visit

Sep 25, 2015

Jamie Grosshans is a lawyer, a mom, and the wife of a lawyer. She believes that "balance" is a figment of somebody's imagination, that there is no traditional career path that is right for every woman, and that lawyers are stressed out. The good news is that she wouldn't trade her life for an ambassadorship and that she takes joy in her law practice and family, even in the face of a Pinterest account that tells her that her kids' snacks are inadequate. 

Listen to her conversation with Mike Schutt, in which she shares her wisdom on mentors, the necessity of Christian community, and the proper use of ringtones. It's really good stuff. 

Jamie's firm is Plain Street Law. She practices family law and criminal defense. She is a member of the Christian Legal Society and serves on the board of the Orlando chapter of CLS. She has three beautiful children. 

Aug 21, 2015

Atlanta lawyers Bill Hollberg amd Eric Wilborn are domestic lawyers who represent clients who don't want a divorce. It's a tough way to make a living, but they say that this is how God has called them to love their neighbors with their legal skills. Their goal in every case is the reconciliation and restoration of the marriage, a goal that they admit they rarely reach.

What kind of divorce lawyers won't sue for divorce and refuse to handle "no-fault" cases? What leads an attorney to strive to treat opposing counsel and parties with kindness and patience, driven by the fruit of the Spirit?

Listen in as Mike Schutt discusses domestic defense work with Hollberg and Wilborn. Their approach to law practice is driven by their faith, rooted in Scripture, and designed to love and serve others. You might even be encouraged to take a closer look at your approach to your own vocation as well!

William B. Hollberg and Eric P. Wilborn are attorneys at Hollberg & Weaver LLP in Atlanta. Mike Schutt is director of Attorney Ministries for the Christian Legal Society and host of Cross & Gavel Audio.

Aug 4, 2015

Host Mike Schutt talks with criminal defense attorney J.T. Borah about "representing the guilty" to the glory of God. Mr. Borah discusses why process is more important than truth in a criminal trial, why Blackstone was right that "it is better to let ten guilty escape," and why one prosecutor tried to prohibit him from citing the Founding Fathers in Voir Dire. It's a great conversation!

This is a re-mixed recording of two previously published episodes early in the life of Cross & Gavel Audio. Rather than porting over the whole archive, we will from time to time re-publish older episodes to make our podcast library complete. 

Jul 22, 2015

Bill Jack thinks Christians suffer from swimming in the waters of secularism and that we're hooked on being popular. After Colorado baker Jack Phillips was punished for declining to bake a cake for a homosexual wedding, Bill asked an LBGT-friendly bakery to bake some cakes with Bible verses on them. Yet he doesn't believe cakes are the issue.

Listen in as Bill talks with host Mike Schutt about the Obergefell decision, the Colorado cake capers, and the Church's challenge of proclaiming truth to those who don't wish to hear. Careful: He might step on your toes . . . and we sure wouldn't want to offend anyone, whould we?

Jun 23, 2015

Many are confused by the hype and hysteria surrounding RFRA -- the Religous Freedom Restoration Act, passed unanimously on the Federal level and signed into law by Bill Clinton. Why the hysteria over a similar act passed this year in Indiana? Why do both state AND federal RFRAs exist? And what is RLUIPA?

Kim Colby, who has been involved in religious liberty work for close to 35 years, answers these questions and more in our discussion.

Kimberllee Wood Colby is Senior Counsel and the Christian Legal Society's Center for Law and Religious Freedom. 

Mike Schutt is CLS's director of the Institute for Christian Legal Studies and a visiting professor at Trinity Law School in Santa Ana, California.

Jun 22, 2015

Mike Schutt interviews Allisa Baier, an attorney with Open Door Legal Services at Seattle's Union Gospel Mission. Ms. Baer talks about her career path into legal aid, God's hand in using her in this field, and the challenges and rewards of working in Chrstiain Legal Aid.